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The length of bridges I crossed is much longer than that of roads you went though.

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  • 枫下沙龙 / 谈天说地 / 挪威的这次杀人事件又一次证明,天主教,基督教,伊斯兰教,都是产生极端主义的温床。
    • 凡是排外的宗教像;天主教,基督教,伊斯兰教都会发展成极端主义,全世界只有佛教是容纳四海的。
      • 指喇嘛教?
      • 轮子算哪个教的分支呢?
        • 中国政府定性为:邪教。
        • 那是加拿大国教.
    • Any religion actually.
      • NO. 有组织的一神教. 一神教的本质就具有歧视和排它性,再加上严密的组织,极具攻击性. 东方的宗教如佛教没有一神教的严密组织.
        • 我同意这个。一神教,排他性严重,也容易产生认识的一元论。
    • 看来共产主义是个宗教了
      • I think it's believe, not religion。。。
      • 以你的智商,你应该很清楚地知道吗。
      • 从一神论和排他性来讲,共产主义就是个宗教。
    • 非常非常震惊. 尤其是发生在挪威.现在死亡人数接近100人了. 凶手是 Anders Behring Breivik, who has been described as a right-wing Christian fundamentalist.
      • 其实是一位革命家...不知道各位为啥翩翩浮想基督教? 条件反射吗?
    • 共产主义和纳粹等什么宗教都不是,前者甚至是反宗教的,其极端主义对人类社会所造成的破坏远比任何宗教都大,而且是大规模的有组织的破坏,并且这种破坏现在还在继续,不像挪威这个事件是个人别的行为。
      • WOW,个人行为?Fundamentalist Christianity has along history....
        • 我说的是发生在挪威的这个事件是个人别的行为,不能反映当今自由民主社会中宗教的本质,历史是历史,那些历史早已过去,人们已经接受了历史的教训,但不会忘记历史,而宗教也并没有消亡。共产主义对人类社会所造成的破坏作用不仅存在于过去,而且还存在于现实,
          最可悲的是很多人并没有接受这个教训。
          • Past and today It is still everywhere.
            • 不知道你转的这些东西你自己看懂没有。现代社会还存在Fundamentalist Christianity,但并不是everywhere,并且绝大多数都不是如发生在挪威的这个事件中的那个恐怖分子,而是遵纪守法的公民。
              • 你承认与否无所谓,事实无可争辩。本人亲历的事情自己最相信。90年代初,我在OSLO郊外一个火车站等车,两个18、9岁金发碧眼男孩子径直向我走来,大声喊叫中国佬滚回去。本人义正词严将二小仔吓退。前不久在美国小镇又遇此等情形。回避抵赖都无济于事。
                • 且不谈你说的是不是真的,即使是真的,也还是个别情况,远不及在中国遇到的类似情况多,否则你也不会不远万里跑到大洋这一边来受罪了。
                  • Fortunately I am not one of the liars. I have been to many countries that many of the 民运人士have never visited or will never be able to. Talking about China here is what one of your proud Canadians did. #6815809@0
                    • 那你是不是觉得加拿大是你去过的国家中最好的,所以决定在这里定居?
                      • 加拿大移民政策曾经相对开放,对多元文化也比较尊重。但这个几十年造就的优势已经开始被人为地削弱,这是非常令人担心的。
                        • 且不说加拿大的多元文化是不是开始被人为地削弱,即使是的,你还是决定在这里定居,还是觉得加拿大是最好的,至少比中国好得多。
                          • You're Not Me
                            本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛You think I've got it all
                            You think I've got it made well
                            How come my only friends are the ones I pay?
                            No one understands
                            What I would do to change my life for just one day
                            Don't say if I were you (say if I were you)
                            Or tell me what you'd do
                            Or things would be if
                            You were in my shoes
                            Cuz you're not me
                            You know what I need
                            And it's not another serenade
                            I get so tired of all the things you say
                            So give me what I want
                            If you only would
                            I'd gladly throw this all away
                            Don't say if I were you (say if I were you)
                            Or tell me what you'd do
                            Or things would be if
                            You were in my shoes (cuz you're not me)
                            Please take me as I am (take me as I am)
                            This isn't what I planned
                            But I don't expect that
                            You can understand
                            Cuz you're not me
                            I know you think you're bein' nice
                            But spare me all your lame advice
                            Time to play my hand and role the dice
                            Everybody's got their price
                            For far to long I've been denied
                            I'm makin' my move so just step aside
                            No one can say I never tried
                            To do everything to get back my pride
                            Hey, you were never me
                            Why can't you see
                            That you're not me (me, me, me, me, me, me, me)
                            Don't say if I were you (say if I were you)
                            Or tell me what you'd do (tell me what you'd do)
                            Or how things would be if
                            You were in my shoes (cuz you're not me)
                            Please help me if you can (help me if you can)
                            This isn't what I planned (this isn't what I planned)
                            But I don't expect that
                            You can understand
                            Cuz you're not me更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                            • nonsense!
                              • What I am saying is that people make decisions based on their own particular situations and needs. It’s not as simple as black and white.
                                • What's your so called particular situations and needs? Whatever they are, it's true that you chose to stay here because you feel Canada is much better than China and most others feel the same way.
                                  • Are, not is. Nor is it a simple yes or no question.
                                    • The question I asked is not a "yes or no" question, got it?
                    • You must have been to many countries in your daydream or even in your nightmare. Tell me how many extremists you met during your so called visits to those countries in your daydream or in your nightmare, please.
                      • People with little or no experience are the most ignorant.
                        • Tell me how many extremists you met during your so called visits to those countries in your daydream or in your nightmare EXPERIENCE, please.
                          • Except Toronto and Canada where else have you been?
                            • The length of bridges I crossed is much longer than that of roads you went though.
                              • LOFL… Excellent English. Yes, you can recite the encyclopaedia backwards before anyone learns A B C... Start it all over or you make a fool of yourself forever.
                                • Nothing is more foolish than travelling around the world in his daydream like you do everyday.
                                  • 你误会拉。偶不是说你。有些肉联们的确鼠目寸光,盲目自信,自大,甚至达到自吹自雷的地步。可笑,可怜,可叹,可悲。 -thornthorn(Holy Moly); 09:22 (#6818798@0) -thornthorn(Holy Moly);
                                    • You are one of them.
                                      • I will let you jump. BB.
                                        • You jump from one country to another in your daydream.
                                          • A nosedive from Wuhan Yangtze River Bridge, gracefully…
                                            • You jump from North Korea to Cuba, and then back and forth, again and again nervously, in your daydream.
                                              • Congratulations! Winner of a complimentary trip to Braunau am Inn, Auschwitz and then Beachy Head. ENJOY!
                                                • All in your daydream and nightmare.
                                                  • Where are they, by the way?
                                                    • In your daydream and nightmare, I said.
                                                      • Ever heard of them? May be next life. Good luck to your journey of learning.
                                                        • You heard of them in your daydream and nightmare, didn't you?
                                                          • To be ignorant of one's ignorance is the malady of ignorance... The pleasures of ignorance are as great, in their way, as the pleasures of knowledge...
                                                            • Are you mumbling in your dream?
                                                              • Ignorance is bliss to some. Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.
                                                                • Visiting many countries in your daydream or in your nightmare is the most ignorant thing I've ever heard.
                                                                  • Enough lectures for someone unfortunately displays extreme high mediocre qualities. The more riches a fool hath, the greater fool he is. Good luck.
                                                                    • The more daydreams he has, the more excited he gets.
                • 真会YY啊!“本人义正词严将二小仔吓退”,难道你头上长了两只角,或有什么特技神功,那么轻易就把那两18、9岁的小仔吓退?也许你看上去更像个恐怖分子。
                  • People with little or no experience are the most ignorant.
                    • Tell me how many extremists you met during your so called visits to those countries in your daydream or in your nightmare EXPERIENCE, please.
                      • Except cursing your place of birth what else you do?
                        • I never curse my place of birth, it's you who curse you place of living.
                          • I can show many examples that you have done this. Would like to see a few?
                            • You already showed how you cursed you place of living many times. If you want to do it again, go ahead.
          • His aim was more political than religious.
            But it's also pretty clear that he was influenced by the Christian Identity movement, which is a political/religious group of racists/ He was deeply impressed with the Turner Diaries, which pretend to be a set of diaries written about an all-consuming religiously-driven race war in America.

            在西方政治文化里所谓保守派与进步派、右派与左派之分,其根源都在宗教信仰上。台前美国各种政治力量的角逐 其实背后是各种宗教派别的角逐.
            • 那么共产主义和自由民主主义之分其根源是不是也都在宗教信仰上呢?是不是取缔所有宗教就不会有这种极端主义了?中国、朝鲜和古巴这样一些压制宗教信仰的国家其极端主义比任何一个宗教都更甚,不论是历史上,还是现实中,而且是大规模的有组织的极端主义。
              • Good question. Ask youself " What are the roots of Communism?" and " Who creates The Communism theory ? ".
                本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛January 12th, 2008
                Mr. Richard (Nick) Noble
                American History and Economics
                Karl Marx analysis

                Communism at its Roots

                The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital, both by Karl Marx, are books that criticize Capitalism, its roots, its effects and its foundations. Throughout the reading, the excerpts form the two books point at the flaws of Capitalism. Why is it bad? Why is it not helpful to a majority? How is it that it can overthrown? What should replace it? These and more are the questions that are posed and subsequently answered by Marx and Engels in the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital.

                The first and foremost thing that Marx and his friend address is the issue of why they think
                Capitalism is bad. According to the Communist Manifesto, Capitalism, which resulted from the ancient feudal society, is a government where the wealth is concentrated among one class of people referred to as the Bourgeoisie by Marx.

                Marx says that, “The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wages.” The bourgeoisie turns all occupations into just a source or investment of money. Doctors, who many consider equal to god because of their power to heal, are seen as people that charge money. Lawyers who are seen as people possessing dense knowledge are known only for their money. Everything is reduced the value of the person in money or capital. This is the main reason for Capitalism being 'bad'. Capitalism reduces the value of every person, regardless of his professions, to his worth in money.

                The bourgeoisie is the upper class and the proletarians are the lower or working class, the social equivalents of pheasants in the ancestral feudal society. “The lower strata of the middle class-- the small tradespeople, shopkeepers, and retired tradesmen generally, the handicraftsmen and peasants – all these sink gradually into the proletariat, partly because their diminutive capital does not suffice for the scale on which Modern Industry is carried on, and is swamped in the competition with the large capitalists, partly because their specialized skill is rendered worthless by new methods of production.”

                These proletarians are pushed to the edges of poverty because their pay is not sufficient to keep them at par with rich bourgeoisie. This itself causes problems. Moreover, Marx points out, “...machinery obliterates all distinctions of labor and nearly everywhere reduces wages to the same low level.” This increase in use of machinery leaves many people jobless. This is why Capitalism is not supportive of a majority of the population of the society. Marx puts it beautifully in the following sentence, “ This is the workers paradox; work harder, produce more, but get fired in the end because they produced too much.”

                Given the conditions there is only one logical result; rebellion. Driven by poverty and hunger,
                groups of proletarians come together in groups that Marx calls trade unions and go up against the bourgeoisie. Even though they are successful sometimes, the majority of their efforts are futile against the powerful wealth of the bourgeoisie. Marx though, clearly says that if this capitalism continues, the population of the proletarians will keep increasing and therein lies their power to overthrow the bourgeoisie. He says, “ The real fruit of their battles lie not in the immediate result, but in the ever expanding union of the workers.”

                Marx then ventures a question. What will the proletarians do once they have overthrown the
                bourgeoisie? This is where the concept of communism comes in. He says that Capitalism, run by the bourgeoisie, should be replaced by Communism, run by the people. He sums up the Communist theory in one sentence: “Abolition of private property.” He says that Communism is better because the bourgeoisie will have almost no power and given that, the proletarians will benefit a lot.

                During the time, Marx and Engels wrote this book, there was an age of revolutions dawning in
                Europe. An age where proletarians everywhere rebelled against their respective upper class or
                bourgeoisie. The reason The Communist Manifesto became a huge hit is because it showed these people a way to get past the upper class and get what they wanted. It also told them what to replace the flawed system with in order to help themselves. But this work was not a hit among all the people. Obviously the Capitalists were annoyed with this work. They were afraid that if something like this gained too much momentum it would be enough to over throw the bourgeoisie. But this step by step manual on how to replace Capitalism was used by many in the later years to control an absolute monarchy. Hitler for example used Marx's concepts and modified it to fit Germany.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                • 我怀疑你是否看得懂你转的这个东西,这和我的问题有什么关系?
    • 如果把基督教和挪威这次恐怖袭击联系在一起,只能说这是一次非常罕见的特例,和“温床”没有关系
      • 没看出来关基督教啥事. 当然万事都是上帝安排....如此惨剧我也不知道有啥道理, 能说啥好, 惟有恒切祷告...另外提醒大家可能是有组织犯罪... "挪威再次发生枪击案"
        • 我非基督徒,请教:如何解释你说的“没看出来关基督教啥事. 当然万事都是上帝安排..”?
          • 前面是指具体教会和杀人嫌犯的直接联系,没看出来...后面是指人世间一切惨事,基督徒并不推卸责任.
            • 还是看不懂!:-)
              • 用一次孤立事件把基督教和“温床”联系起来实在是太荒谬,如果按这个道理,日本文化也是“温床”之一,因为曾经有“重新房子”和“赤军”,这帮人搞的事情和挪威屠杀相比毫不逊色
              • 遗憾,我的错。
    • hehe
    • 好像越来越多的迹象显示这个凶手的动机是反移民,反多元文化的。 -haploidus(今剩叹); 7.24 22:17 (#6816738@0) ———— 说他是种族主义极端分子差不多,宗教是外衣
      • 当地的中老年不退休,移民抢饭碗,工作机会去了低成本亚洲,难怪青年人发疯。美国的例子证明,资本主义到了尽头。
        • 这事和经济问题没什么关系,凶手为了这一天已经思考、策划了9年之久,他之所以选择这两个地方作案是因为他对挪威工党的恨,拿他自己的话说就是-- “工党的多元文化政策使得穆斯林殖民主义者得以在欧洲蔓延”
        • the end of the world is coming.
      • +1
    • 要坚定不移地做一个无神论者,坚定不移地用自己的头脑把事情想清楚。
      • 不幸的是对大多数人来说,要么信神,要么就信“伟人”,信“权”。
      • 专制国家如中国、朝鲜、古巴等,其国民大多是坚定不移的无神论者,但没几个人能用自己的头脑把事情想清楚,所以这和信不信神无关。
        • +1
    • 你明天去杀个人,then 谈天说地,rolia, 多伦多,加拿大,北半球,都成了产生极端主义的温床。em, very logical.
      • +1
      • 发现,楼主是卖床的,底下几个附和的是床模
        • 这些卖床的和床摸根本不愿意直面这次悲剧的根源.
      • Double-Standards. 这种态度到底是想这个世界更和平一点还是更混乱一点?让大家看清楚,了解深刻一点,避免以后悲剧再次发生,是好事还是坏事?为什么在民主国家还秉持CCP埋火车头的态度?
        • 这些卖床的和床摸根本不愿意直面这次悲剧的根源. -binghongcha76(一只大猫)
        • 是你described as a right-wing Christian fundamentalist。。。是你在埋汰我火车头也。你这叫啥态度?
          • 又是CCP那一套,又来歪曲造谣了。我全都给了链接,又变成我described 。。。。
            • 不用理这些人。
              • 你一个卖床的,一点都不专业。一床不应该卖多家。
                • 啊啊,这就是民运人士的文明。真是令人大开眼界。 -thornthorn(Holy Moly); 7.24 10:52 (#6816062@0) (#6815043@0)
                  • 到处都是民运人士,不是又在做白日梦吧?
                    • 最近疯人院的人怎么都到《谈天说地》了? -wincity(红卫兵); 4.15 18:38 (#6623731@0)
                      • 疯人院的人最爱做白日梦了。
            • 链接何在?
            • 但是就是有人要别有用心地歪曲链接内的内容,企图把这个个别特例扩大到对整个宗教的仇恨,乃至对整个西方民主社会的否定,这才是问题的关键所在。
        • i feel sorry for you,Miss.you do not have a clue what others talking about and what yourself talking about.you picture yourself sitting on a high horse and talk with a fast mouth while you mind is sleeping.i suggest you,young lady,LISTEN,THINK,then talk.
          and talk like a gentle-person instead of a hysteria.always discuss with decency.
    • 干吗一定要和宗教挂钩?人,呵呵。。。根本的原因在于人,没有人就好了,这世界和谐了。
    • 干脆说挪威是产生极端主义的温床,或西方民主自由社会是产生极端主义的温床。如果是这样,不知道为什么你要不远万里跑到这里来受洋罪?
      • 还是中国和佛教好, 无论发生什么样的大屠杀, 人家都能沉住气坐在那里念经.能真正做到看破红尘. 从不"闹事".你想党和政府该多高兴啊.