After read all your posts, I understand you better . I respect your achievements, Ms chen, though I cannot follow your ways in either canada and china -victorzhou(patty) @巴尔的摩华人论坛:巴尔的摩枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum of Baltimore

工作学习 / 事业与工作 / 我的海归20个月的过程和感受（3）（加籍，IT,北京） -cleverman(cleverman); 2006-6-21 {3764} (#3038690@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛下面先说一下中国当代的三座大山：住房，教育，医疗

其实，20万的年薪应该在国内能活得很滋润了，购买力确实比加拿大一般的薪水高很多。但是，如果我们考虑到三座大山，情况似乎就变得复

杂起来。首先，房子现在是要比加拿大贵，而且还一个劲的涨，政府越调控，涨的越厉害。最近稍微缓慢了些，但是趋势不会改变。价格的不

断上涨，我认为有以下几个原因。
1。符合全球的现状：现在，加拿大，美国哪里的房子不是在涨，热点地区涨得也很凶猛。
2。符合中国的经济增长情况：我认为只要是中国的经济再增长，房子必定会涨。
3。北京地少人多，又是中国的最热点城市之一，必定要涨：现在北京四环以内基本上是没有新房了。很多房子在五环以外，都达到了8000一平

米。
4。炒房团：包括集体炒房，个人投资。现在中国可以投资的地方，对老百姓来说似乎只有房地产保险。因此，只要是有点钱的人，都会想尽办

法投入进来。
5。地皮拍卖：现在政府是拍卖地皮，开发商只有竞得高价才能取得开发权。然后，这些就转嫁到了老百姓头上。
6。很少有人愿意卖二手房：如果不是特别缺钱，大家都是用来出租。二手房市场很小，因此在平衡新房的价格上来说，起不到什么作用。
7。北京的规划人口是1700万，现在是1300万。还有400万的空缺支持，房子不涨才怪。
不过北京的房子也有个特点，无论怎么涨，基本上到达1万一平米之后，就会变得非常缓慢。因此，对投资来说5，6千的房子比较合适，一般很

快就会涨到8000。另外北京最好的区就是海淀了，上风上水，自然，人文环境好。不过这里已经很难见到新楼盘了。基本已经开发完毕了。这

里又是中关村的所在地，所以，IT人士买房子更头疼。有钱还没得可选。
这里说一下北京的IT分布，基本上就是3块：国贸，中关村，上地。由于租金的上涨，很多公司已经或者开始从国贸迁往望京。比如，摩托罗拉

，爱立信，西门子，施耐得等等。不过主要是通信公司。中关村现在以清华科技园为主，很多大外企。最近google的总部也设在了那里。不过

微软不在那里，在西格玛大厦。上地主要是囤积了国内的公司和一些小外企。也有大外企在那里，比如IBM，Oracle.不过，上地和中关村还是

差了个档次。而且，设在那里的外企的工资都不会很高，因为从地点上来看，他们就很小气。上地最近新开了一个楼盘，起价都到了1万以上，

叫上地moma好像。感觉十分可笑。
谈完价格问题，要谈两个更重要的问题。虽然房子贵，也许我们还能承受。可是，谈到房子的质量，和物业的服务，我们就会非常的无可奈何

了。我可以负责任的说，北京的房子基本100%有质量问题，物业服务也是基本100%不会令人满意。举几个例子：
首先物业打人的事情是经常发生的，我也记不住具体的物业名字了，大家随便在网上找找，应该就不少。这里说说质量问题吧。
1。我自己的房子，墙面多处出现裂痕，卫生间的墙面渗水到卫生间外面的墙面，卫生间地面斜面不对，积水不能到达地漏。
2。老板的房子，厨房顶层的瓷砖一碰就往下掉。没有设计装空调的位置。
3。同学的房子，有一次下雨过后，整栋楼突然下降10几厘米，一层出现了墙体裂痕。
4。电视上看到的，一个楼盘几个月之内，天然气爆炸了3次。一个楼盘的阳台只是用几根铁皮连住，整天往楼底下掉石灰。看样子铁皮生锈腐

烂掉以后，整个阳台都会掉下去。一个楼盘的一面墙，从底层到顶层同一位置，出现了一个大裂缝。一个电视主持人买了个别墅，整栋房子渗

水，修复几次没有作用，现正打官司。
还有很多，就不多说了。总之买房子就像赌博一样，赶不好，会烦死你。对了，再说一个百旺山那里的楼盘，环境巨好，房子也漂亮，价钱也

便宜。不过附近有个垃圾场，夏天晚上的恶臭可以把人熏醒。如果你不事先明了，买了之后就惨了。当然了，不是所有的房子都这样。也有房

子的质量，物业都很好。不过，十分罕见罢了。如果保险起见，买个这些地方的二手房是不错的选择。
最后说一下房产证的问题。通常开发商是要先取得预售许可证，就可以卖房子了。你也可以买了，可以得到发票和合同。不过，在入住以后，

还要办理房产证，如果房产证办不下来，你对房子就没有合法的权益。如果拆迁或者什么，你就得不到合法的保障。可是，就会出现由于开发

商的资质问题，房产证下不来的情况。我就奇怪了，既然资质有问题，为什么当初让他卖房子呢？既然允许他卖房子，我也有发票，合同，为

什么不具有房屋的真正权利呢？虽然法律规定，入住几个月开发商要办理好房产证。可是，实际情况却相差甚远。我知道有人好几年还办不下

来的，我自己的也快两年了，也没有下来。其实，房产证才是最重要的一个问题。更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

Thanks for sharing -tom73(tom); 2006-6-21 (#3038749@0)
多谢你这些理性感性的描述；说到海龟，多少多少钱什么，事业什么，最后还是要考虑一个日常生活问题，衣食住行这几项，国内发展很快，可是说要真正有个舒适安定的生活环境，起码北京不具备。 -fxid(民工模范); 2006-6-21 {100} (#3038769@0)
随便到新郎搜虎的房产网页上看看，那个价格，那个质量，那些和你打交道的人员的素质，
多少钱能解决问题？

again, which one is more important for me(you), a "sounds-like" peaceful life, or a great career...even in a laizy land like canada, u still need to spend 8 hours a day for your career -tom73(tom); 2006-6-21 {42} (#3039439@0)
to someone this is absolute first priority

谢谢。能讲一下你现在在哪里做什么？下一步的计划？是不是我问早了？在你未来的章节里？ -didina(割完草耕地); 2006-6-21 (#3038796@0)

我冒昧替他答一下: 在微软REDMOND总部, 做SDET, 下一步计划是在比尔盖茨退休之际, 顶替他的位置 :) -c-c-c(其实,我是一名程序员); 2006-6-21 (#3038800@0)

比尔不是已宣布退出了么? -nix(梦似烟花心似水); 2006-6-21 (#3039512@0)

宣布2008退出 -oe2003(东方快车); 2006-6-21 (#3039571@0)

国内目前状况，年薪40万也未必得到好的生活质量。 -hai(欲速不达); 2006-6-21 (#3039169@0)

Can you elaborate? -tom73(tom); 2006-6-21 (#3039384@0)

Housing, Education, Medical system, Traffic and daily life. -hai(欲速不达); 2006-6-21 (#3039446@0)

I suddenly realized an important fact -victorzhou(patty); 2006-6-21 {793} (#3039348@0)
When we're comparing 200KRMB with 60KCAD, we forgot to consider this factor. i.e.

Any high income jobs in china can be only treated as "contractor jobs" . At least they gave me that feeling. Only very few people will be picked to grow with the company. Many of them can stay for less than 2 years. This is my observation. I found the new Haiguis are changing jobs very often. Most of them are not voluntarily.

For example, managers are treated as a prosperous position for Haigui. However, they are replaced gradually by local people whenever possible. As a Haigui staying in such a feeling, you will not feel even as good as a "contractor".

If in that case, we're not comparing 200KRMB with 60KCAD permanent, because 60KCAD permanent is equivelant to 90KCAD contractor job.

Don’t know much about other industries…but for IT it is the same unstability everywhere…I don’t think 60kcad job is more stable than 200krmb job… -tom73(tom); 2006-6-21 {354} (#3039429@0)
my experience, it is a lot easier to switch jobs or find another one in china than in can…and the network u build in china will be stronger than the one in can, which protect u from falling…

A person never need to worry about job stability in china (and only cares about career advancement), but he has to worry about it in can, u tell the different

I felt the contrary as you. -victorzhou(patty); 2006-6-21 {1226} (#3039520@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛People talking about 35-year-old issue. If you're more than 35, unless you've reached very senior level, it will be very difficult to find a job in china.

About networking, my personal feeling is: the people helped you most are often the guys you are not very close to each other. All my major leaps are conducted by some "new helpers". The people you play together everyday cannot help that much.

To argue the stability is very hard. Canada has very small job market. And I've left canada myself. But as a person earning 60K, it's very easy to find another tech job with 60K. When I was earning 60K, I never worry about my job security.

But 200K in china is different. Without strong and match experence, it's hard to relocate to another manager position.

In one word, if you're looking for a career of employee, you'd better stay in NA. If you want to run your own business, it's china.

I think these Haigui has not lived in china long enough. The first a few years are usually exciting. They don't need to worry about many long-term challenges.

If looking at these Haigui, many of them are running back and forth between china and NA. I don't think they have succeeded in their career.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
别忘了，在中国做IT你还得照顾好自己的身体，一天工作12个小时是很平常的/ -ericyoung(eric); 2006-6-21 {95} (#3040385@0)
在加拿大工作时间长了通常回忘记这个，我刚来不久，还深有感受，现在还不适应加拿大每天8小时的工作。

Statistics shows that the average CFO’s tenure in NA is 11 months. -chendavid(David); 2006-6-21 (#3039568@0)

ZT: a good point here -victorzhou(patty); 2006-6-21 {4598} (#3039666@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛海龟回国都是为了三个字：事业心

However,

再说说你是谁的问题。不是人家移民你就要移民，人家海龟你就合适海龟。这坛子里，如果年龄超过35岁，回国没有一份稳定而且有前途的事业，只有那么一份简历，我认为就不要做海龟梦。什么“是金子哪里都发光”，我从来认为这是句鼓励人的话，但同时也是句最大的谎言：因为金子绝对不会发光-----如果没有光照到他的话。以中国人目前的思维方式，以及就业现状，这个年龄的人都是面试别人的人，老大岁数还拿份简历，到处“求”职，这件事本身不被国内的思维接受，别跟我提什么“年龄歧视”，现实一点。没有那么一束光照到你，你这块金子就是发不出光来。

He pointed out an important thing. What are your advantages as being a Haigui?

Age? Experience? Skills? Degree? Energt? Networking? English?

Then tell yourself how can you get and survive an outstanding job offer in china.

Don't say "all my friends are doing good" and imply that you will do good too. The friends you met in china are the ones who are doing good. If they're not, you will not find them. And you cannot copy another person's story any more at current age.

Comparatively, to live in NA is much easier. You can actually make your living at any cities empty handed only with a resume. The only requirement is to make yourself an valuable employee, which is much much easier than doing the same thing in china. And you can copy another person's experience. For example, I left canada to US and find a better career. I can say that most of the complainers in this forum can find a good job in US and live a life similar as mine in no time.

The reason is simple, because you're looking for a normal mid-class job in NA, while you're hunting for a 人上人 job in china.

If you only aimed to get 100KRMB technical job in china, it will also be easy for you too. (Unless many companies will not hire a 35-year-old engineer even he only asked for 100K) Because most of people are doing pure technical jobs in NA during these years even they were managers in china. They have NO experience of manager at all in canada or US. Then just because they've got a foreign passport, they suddenly become qualified as a manager in china? If I were the boss, I will not hire these Haigui.

Very few chinese people are doing managers in NA. However, a technical manager of NA is completely different with a technical manager in china.

The mamagers who survived successfully in china fall into following categories:
1) The employees transfered back from NA to china as a manager. These are mainly for outsourcing service. Because they are from the same company and know well about the culture and requirements. On the other hand, they know products much better.

There're still a lot of opportunities like these. Companies will usually give them 2 options: option1 is to keep their salary in NA but preset the duration for 2 years. One of their responsibilities is to train a local person to replace themselves in china. Option2 is to pay 300KRMB, which is 5 times higher than an average engineer. It's still a risk to be replaced.

Their workloads are usually very high. They have to work day and night (for communication with NA). BTW, these oursourcing managers are usually located at Chengdu, Xi'an and other inner cities. Office in SH, BJ, GZ are more and more becoming service centers or sales oriented.

2) Hired a manager from another company with proven experience. This manager maybe a Haigui or not. But since he has proven experience, Haigui will be preferred.

3) Someone who can sell themselve great.
I have to admit that some people are great in hunting for jobs. They will give you a good and senior feeling even they know nothing. This is a useful skill though.

4) Someone promoted from leader or engineers.
Without proven experience, some companies will still give a try to people with potential. Some wil get a manager position, some will get leader or engineer for a few months. If they can prove their value within 6 months, they will get promoted. Of course, many of them failed due to all kinds of reasons.

I did meet quite a lot of Haigui in china. Each time (usually on a dinner table after 2 bottles of beers or wines) they will tell you how prosperoius his current career is. Then one year later, you will find him with a new title in a new company. He again will tell you how good his new job is.

This is habitat of Haigui nowadays.

I know many people feel uncomfortable in canada. They want to do something to improve their career.

Personally, I feel going to US is a much better and easier choice. Being a contractor is another choice.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

Don't want to brag or show off. Matter of fact... -chendavid(David); 2006-6-21 {214} (#3039720@0)
I got an offer two years ago 500K RMB in SH. I turned it down. I got an offer recently 1.2MRMB in SH. I am gonna go for it. I am making $200K CDN/per year in Canada for the last three years. I am above 35 years.

YOU ARE THE MAN!!! This is a typical HaiGui case. -tom73(tom); 2006-6-21 (#3039742@0)

I am actually a woman who is using a man's ID. Cause I don't want to be judged in the first place -chendavid(David); 2006-6-21 (#3039834@0)

Marry Me!!! -johnding(unbreakable); 2006-6-21 (#3039928@0)

I take this as a compliment -chendavid(David); 2006-6-21 (#3040003@0)

Then can you tell us what were you doing in Canada and what are the 2 offered you've ever got in china? -victorzhou(patty); 2006-6-21 (#3039786@0)

I am a consultant. The first offer was from a consulting firm. The recent one is from a big company as a manager. -chendavid(David); 2006-6-21 (#3039838@0)

After read all your posts, I understand you better . I respect your achievements, Ms chen, though I cannot follow your ways in either canada and china -victorzhou(patty); 2006-6-21 {2067} (#3039920@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛As I mentioned, to create a better career, we have 2 ways:
1) going to US
2) to be a contractor (actually, I means consultant in your word)

You also revealed the 3rd way: a successful Haigui's way. I think it's harder to manage for most of the people in the forum. And you have to admit that both of the 2 chances you got in china cannot be found right at the corner. No all the 35-year-old persons can do as good as you. You've to admit that age is a defect more than a virtue in IT especially in china.

If I were in your case, I will go back to china too. But I did not see any good opportunities like that. My original company could relocate me in china for a period. If I accepted the 300K arrangement, I can stay long. If I were paid the same money in canada, then the job is up to 3 years.

From money point of view, it sounds good. But as a technical person aiming to live in NA forever, the years in china will be a problem for next career move. I don't know how many people plan to go back to china forever besides good rush there. I won't consider this alternative. When I was in china, I have fighted long enough for success. I have already tried.

I chose US for my next career is based on feasibility, and most important of all, it was my dream. Then I got an good offer with GC support. I fulfilled all my objectives. After arrived at US, I saw a bigger world.

At our age, we all learned to give up when necessary. Find a way suitable for ourselves is the most important. All the discussions here did not mentioned enough on it.

We should not rush to Haigui when heard someone, such as you, got a great offer and assume it will apply to ourselves, or turning into your areas since we heard you doing good in canada too.

Everyone has his own majority which is competrtive. It's better to make full use of his own potential rather than following others' tracks.

Again, I'm not talking of "enjoy peaceful life". The choice is based on how to do better in our OWN careers. This rule should apply to everyone's case.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

Thank you for sharing -johnding(unbreakable); 2006-6-21 (#3040046@0)
II will certainly miss the peaceful life in Canada -chendavid(David); 2006-6-21 {1137} (#3040065@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Everything has a trade-off. You can’t have it all. In terms of problem, everyone has his/her own shares. Behind my move, there is another major reason, which is my husband. It is a big pressure for him to handle because the wife is doing way better than him. He sees some slim chance that he could catch up in China by getting into business. I will honor him the opportunity this time since I have nothing to lose. If he would consent to stay in Canada, I might not be going.

I could not agree with the opinion that the cost of living in China is lower than in NA. In my opinion, if you want to maintain the same living standards in China, you definitely have to pay more over there. Same kinds of house, cars and brand name cloth, cosmetics are more expensive in China. Let alone the water and air pollution issues. For all the good stuff I am giving up here, I am betting my career will advance to next level in China cause I feel I have reached my peak in Canada. If for whatever reason, my career does not fly, I might still come back. That is why I am not going to sell my house in Canada.

There is never a perfect choice.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

You say some good points here...I admit that moving to US does improve earning, but it still doesn't help to meet most of HaiGuis want..."做人做事的成就感，社交上谈笑风生的畅快，丰富的文化生活"... -tom73(tom); 2006-6-21 (#3039836@0)

这种幸福感在国外是难以找到的。业余生活丰富让人迅速恢复疲劳有幸福感，没事儿就是去洗个脚按摩也是好的，不用上网发泄。国内的生活风风火火浮躁得很，好像大家都得了狂躁症，在这里大家集体得抑郁症。 -scarley(紫色的薰衣草); 2006-6-21 (#3039853@0)

Thank you for both of you, Victor and Ms. Chen. Your discussion are constructive. -octane99(octane99); 2006-6-22 (#3042600@0)

谢谢分享。请问你的加籍身份有没有对工作或者生活造成影响？是何种影响？你是那何种签证回去的？我们一直没入籍主要就是担心以后回国有麻烦。谢谢 -lltennis(练练网球); 2006-6-21 (#3039365@0)
20万大概就是国内IT公司TEAM LEADER的薪水.干上两年有机会可以上去MANAGER，那就是30－50万的薪水 -google2002(Google); 2006-6-21 (#3039428@0)

not for everyone -meat_head(黑哥哥); 2006-6-21 (#3039561@0)

rolia可以开个人专辑，见 -pangss(pangss); 2006-6-21 (#3039454@0)
去年看了一本书叫"The Alchemist" by Paulo Coelho, 比较有启发, 主题是"To realize one's destiny is a person's only obligation. -goingconern(GoingConcern); 2006-6-21 {993} (#3040127@0)
这本书用最少的笔墨赢得了最大的反响, 曾经引起不少争论. 讲的是一个非常简单的故事, 牧羊少年Santiago起初是为了一个非常简单的想法, 赶着羊群,穿越沙漠,希望得到好的收成. 后来在梦中得到启示, 为了寻找传说中的炼金术者(the alchemist) 和宝藏, 卖了羊群, 历尽千辛万苦和各种启示, 到达目的地, 最后的结果是, 发现地宝藏其实就埋藏在他家乡出发地的地下. 是忽悠版的INDIANA JONES, 儿童版的西游记, 但比西游记要直白且煽情的多, 也有很浓重的宗教涵义. 建议做爸妈的给小孩读读这个故事.

我想有时侯命运就是这样安排, 不去经历各种风雨, 没有那种激情去发掘生命中每一年每一天神奇的安排, 虽然宝贵的东西近在眼前, 没有那么多经历, 我们可能无从发现.

书里有两句话话印象很深刻, 和大家分享一下.
"Every search begins with beginner's luck and ends with the victor's being severely tested."

"What went wrong when other alchemists tried to make gold and were unable to do so?" "They were looking only for gold. They were seeking the treasure of their Personal Legend, without wanting actually to live out the Personal Legend"

呵呵，我的理解与你稍有不同。最触动我的是要始终记得并坚持PERSONAL LEGEND，不论有怎样的挫折与诱惑。 -cyberlily(whitewhisper); 2006-6-23 (#3044223@0)

@Baltimore

After read all your posts, I understand you better . I respect your achievements, Ms chen, though I cannot follow your ways in either canada and china

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